There's an article in Bestlife (and online) titled "Why French Men Don't Get Caught". Very interesting read.

It points out some things about Americans, men in particular, that I find worth thinking about.

Why is cheating such a big deal? Do we idealize marriage to the point of it becoming a parody of itself?

The article also talks about "Cocooning" in a marriage - that is having no outside friends and relying totally on each other for every kind of relationship. We've all talked about that here before - the difficulty in maintaining friendships, making new friends, etc. I wonder how all this fits together. Any thoughts on the article or my comments?

Cheating at anything is a big deal. Just look at Barry Bonds. You would be hard pressed to find anybody who thinks that he should be the home run king (should he break the record this summer).

It is the same thing in a marriage, cheating shows that you believe that you are above the rules that others adhere to and that makes you someone that others don't want to associate with.

But why is that attitude (cheaters at anything are evile) so common in the US and not in other countries?

What about relationships, like some on this forum have, that have become totally non-sexual? Is forced celibacy fair to them?

I'm wondering if we, as Americans, have become so morally rigid that we expect absolute perfection from ourselves and if we fail, it is due to some sort of character flaw rather than just our being human. If someone cheats on their spouse, are they a inherently bad person, or are they just a normal human, with weaknesses and all?

I'm all for keeping promises - but I wonder if we all need to adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" mind set.

quote:

Originally posted by LKS:
What about relationships, like some on this forum have, that have become totally non-sexual? Is forced celibacy fair to them?

If your spouse had some sort of injury where she could have sex ever again, would that be grounds to abandon the "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health" part of your vows? How would you want her to act if it was you who could no longer have sex?

quote:

Originally posted by sf49erfan:

quote:

Originally posted by LKS:
What about relationships, like some on this forum have, that have become totally non-sexual? Is forced celibacy fair to them?

If your spouse had some sort of injury where she could have sex ever again, would that be grounds to abandon the "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health" part of your vows? How would you want her to act if it was you who could no longer have sex?

That's a good question, and I really don't know how I'd feel about it.

Let me ask you this - if a spouse simply refuses to have sex, isn't that also an abandonment of the marital vows? At what point, if ever, do you chuck in the towel and divorce? If everything else is fine, but the marriage is non-sexual, would a discrete, no strings attached affair be such a bad thing?

I haven't read the article yet, but I will weigh in with my opinion. While I agree that cheating in marriage is more acceptable in some other cultures, I believe it has become more accepted in this country over the span of my lifetime. When I was young, cheating spouses were spoken of in hushed tones, and always with contempt. Now, it seems as if many people applaud the act, and the cheaters are often pretty open about it.

I think a person's view about how wrong it is will be based on religious and cultural biases. I am a middle-class, middle-aged man of Scnadanvian descent with a strong Christian basis in my life. Consequently, I don't believe it is ever okay to cheat.

That said, I can't promise it couldn't happen to me. I am one of the people on this board that is languishing in an almost sexless marraige. It is a very big struggle for me. However, were I ever to cheat on my wife, I would not use her behavior (no affection) as an excuse.

This is a pretty interesting topic for discussion. I'd like to hear some other opinions on the subject.

But one of the points of the article was that in France, for instance, people aren't necessarily open about cheating, they just accept that it is part of life.

I too am middle class, in my 40s, raised in a Christian environment. But I have learned over the years that life can rarely be colored solely in the black and white terms of Victorian era morality.

Being moral is important - but how do you define morality? The Church (of whatever denomination)? Popular culture? I am beginning to think that Neichtze's "obermensch" is a better model than most.

In fact, I would argue that many people follow that model within the constraints of religious belief.

Here's another article related to this titled "A Sexless Marriage is not a Marriage".

I don't know that anyone here is in such a marriage, but it is an interesting read.

I would define morality as "doing to others as you would have done to you". That is the basis of most religious tenants and I think it is a saying that would make most societies run smoothly.

Regarding cheating, again "do to others as you would have done to you". How would you feel if the shoe was on teh otehr foot.

I know of one person that was in a sexless marriage. She was sexless, he was getting it from other sources and just didn't want it from the wife.

I dunno, that seems a bit restrictive, or at least if too rigorously applied it would be.

Morality is tough to define using that model. Would you send anyone to prison (for instance) if you rigorously followed the "golden rule" model? I know I sure don't want to go to prison for anything, so I can't send someone else there, right?

On the other hand, situational morality also sucks. The "do what feels good" school has done a lot of damage to our society.

To me, it is a combination of several flavors of thought. I follow societal norms, but also tailor that to the situation at times.

As for cheating, again, I don't know if it is as simple as the religious arguments make it.

I certainly wouldn't set out to cheat, but if it happened, would I be racked with guilt and perform a blubbering confession to my wife? Probably not.

Boy this is a timely read - I've been offline for some time, busy at work.

At what point does a sexless marriage become irreparable? I'm about 3.5 years, mid-40s. I'm quite prepared to reduce this number by 1 year given the birth of our son 3 years ago (there were some previous "difficult" pregnancies that didn't last).

I'm finding that a distance is being created and I've lost any interest in attempting to bridge it. What's more, the distance manifests itself elsewhere in the relationship; parenting ideas, money (aka one party thinking there's plenty of it).

I was in a restaurant a few weeks ago, while I was driving home from working in another city - a pizza place. While I waited for my food I noticed a couple who were probably in their early 60's. In the 45 minutes that I was there, I don't think they said one word to each other - is this my destination? Is it better for me to leave now? Turning 45 didn't help, will the second half of my life be clouded by this frustation?

did this raven in your relationship occur after the birth of your son? if so sounds chemical. if you haven't, maybe consider the old "visit a doctor and get tested for a chemical imbalance."

if you have, or if she refuses, i would consider leaving at this point.

Good question, looking back I think the involuntary-celibacy started well before the birth of our son. After what I think would be considered a normal courtship - sex a couple of times a week, things began to cool off after marriage. Before the conception of our son I think the frequency was probably twice a month. Even then I was starting to become concerned - we were probably in our late thirties.

I suppose at that time I turned my focus to work and graduate school (a mid career return).

I don't think it's chemical - but I'm not a doctor. A friend wondered if she was depressed - she's becoming lazy, leaving me with quite a bit of childcare and work around the house. Quite frankly I think she's just not interested in sex - she admits to being lazy.


Here's my supplemental question - I feel a bit guilty thinking of leaving (I would not hesitate to be the primary caregiver to my son, so it's not a question of avoiding childcare). Am I a heel to leave a 9 year marriage because of sex? I should add a fact, it's not just sex, it's intimacy in general. I'm particulary interested in hearing the opinion of any women who are surfing this site.

quote:

I was in a restaurant a few weeks ago, while I was driving home from working in another city - a pizza place. While I waited for my food I noticed a couple who were probably in their early 60's. In the 45 minutes that I was there, I don't think they said one word to each other - is this my destination? Is it better for me to leave now? Turning 45 didn't help, will the second half of my life be clouded by this frustation?

No, being unhappy is not normal. I am in my mid 60's and have been married for over 23 years (3rd marriage). I really enjoy my wife's company and I think that she (57 years old) would really be upset with me if we didn't have sex once a week.

I know several older couples (80's and 90's) who are really affectionate toward each other. The wife and I took a couple in their 90's to an evening affair a couple of years ago. We got quite a kick out of her calling him "Sugar" when they were in the back seat and didn't think we could hear. They treated each other like gold. I spent some time with them before she died and was really interested in how they had managed to stay in love for 72 years.

I sure don't know what the formula is but I am really happy with my wife, even if we have to agree to disagree fairly regularly.

Firelaw - I think your post could have been written any one of many of us on this board. (See my very long thread called "She's Lost Interest" as an example)

I think the loss of intimacy in general and sex specifically as a puzzle that many of us have been trying to solve. I don't have the answer either, but I think we can help each other out by sharing thoughts and ideas. I have considered walking away myself many times, but my love for my wife makes me keep wanting to make something work out.

As for me, I think that at age 49, I am way to young to be a member of the "once a month" club. (Actually, I may be the president!)